MGTOW

What Happened to Sandman? "The Monks of MGTOW" Video Part 2

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Comments (15)
  1. Rickard says:

    Sandman went #FullClarey in this video. The sad thing is that there are self-identified MGTOWs who actually agree with Sandman and dish out the TFL insult. Some of these self-identified MGTOWs either lack knowledge about the difference between TFL and MGTOW or are willfully ignorant and use it as an excuse to promote (in their view) their superior position of being approved of by females (two notable examples of this are Aaron Clarey and David Beecroft). Just in case any confusion arises here, lets properly define the difference between TFL and MGTOW:

    TFL or True Forced Loneliness are men who have been rejected by a woman or women in general on the basis of reasons such as social awkwardness or unattractiveness. They feel lonely because of their rejection/s and still seek female approval, hoping one day that a NAWALT will come along and make them “complete”. MGTOW on the other hand have decided to take control over their life and stopped basing their worth on female approval. They decided to embrace male sovereignty and pursue their own goals and desires independently of whether it attracts females or not. Each man becomes a MGTOW through different circumstances. One example is a man who has been burned in the divorce court, however a more relevant example in this context is a TFL who has decided to stop basing his self-worth on female approval and has decided to take control over his own life. In this sense a TFL can become a MGTOW once he has shed his gynocentric thinking.

    Now, on to the point about religion within MGTOW. Sadly it seems that some MGTOWs have an anti-religious standpoint to the degree that they don’t consider self-identified MGTOWs who are religious as MGTOWs. This is just another form of co-opting/hijacking attempt similar to Paul Elam’s MGTOW+, Aaron Clarey’s pussy worship (see above), if you have political leaning x or y (most often used against left-wingers) then you’re not a MGTOW or if you have kids or want kids then you’re not a MGTOW. It is clear that these people with their hijacking attempts don’t realize that MGTOW is about three core things: 1. Men, 2. Rejection of marriage, marriage is incompatible with MGTOW (it ofc includes common-law marriage which is after all marriage but without the ceremony) and 3. Rejection of misandry and misandric ideologies (primarily rejection of feminism and of traditionalism). But I digress, back to the point about religion. Sandman is one of the MGTOWs who openly stated that if you’re religious than you can’t be MGTOW. Even Stardusk (who I would consider be very anti-religion) never stated that religion is incompatible with MGTOW. He might say it’s irrational and try to justify his claims but he doesn’t do so in the context of MGTOW itself (i.e. as an requirement for MGTOWs). While I thoroughly disagree with Stardusk on the matter of religion, I still respect his views far more than Sandman’s outright contempt for religion and religious people.

    Either way, there is no contradiction between religion and MGTOW because MGTOW is simply a rejection of gynocentrism and not a rejection of religion. If you (the anti-religion MGTOWs) want a rejection of religion go to the atheism community, don’t try to insert your anti-religion agenda into the core of MGTOW. Sure, one could argue that some religions promote traditionalism or gynocentrism and indeed it may be true. However, there is usually nothing in the religion itself that states that being a bachelor for life is not a viable option to take. For instance in Christianity it is actually proposed by Paul in the Bible that bachelorhood is a viable way to go assuming that you can keep your desires in check (i.e. be celibate). Even if one would steer away from the celibacy route there is always room for forgiveness (assuming one does regret his actions).

    As for monks and religious influence amongst great men: It is true that Europe fell into a quite dark period after the collapse of the Roman empire. One could blame Christianity for keeping Europe in that state for a long period of time. Sure, that may be true, however it is important to note that Christianity also helped in maintaining some of the previous knowledge (from Ancient Greece) that could otherwise been lost. For instance it was during the middle ages that the first universities (as we know them) were opened. I don’t know much about other fields/subjects but the Church played a vital role in creating a system that allowed storage of music in paper form (sheet music). The (Gregorian) chants are pretty much the oldest pieces of music that have survived the test of time (there are two exceptions (two older ones): one is a piece from Ugarit in Syria and one is a piece of music from Ancient Greece). Before the advent of (Gregorian) chant music was taught aurally and was thus easily lost with time. Indeed the aural tradition kept going for many centuries after the advent of sheet music but at least parts of it could be written down and preserved for future generations. During the medieval period (after 10th century when the first sheet music came along) there was a significant musical development going on. We went from monophonic music to advanced counterpoint in works with 4, 5 or even 6+ voices and from no harmony at all to triadic harmony which even to this day is the basis of most Western music. The sheet music also got more advanced and more detailed, at first there was no rhythmic information (the information had to be transferred aurally) but eventually (by the 1500s) we had pretty much our modern notation system with full information. Sure, it took till the mid 1700s before we could properly convey dynamics (how loud or soft something should be played) and until the early 1800s until tempo information could be conveyed in an exact manner (thanks to the invention of the metronome) but I digress. Either way, the Church (and indeed monks) had a vital role in the development of Western music.

    Now as for great men and religion: Basically, there is nothing in religion that prevents men from becoming great if they so wish. If we take composers for instance we can see that Antonio Vivaldi was a priest and yet he wrote a huge body of important works. J.S. Bach was a very devout Christian and it could be argued that he is the apex of apex minds in music. Even composers who did not compose much for the Church or were associated to a significant extent with the Church, such as W.A. Mozart or Beethoven, each wrote Catholic masses at some point. Christianity and the Church has also been an inspiration to countless painters, sculpturers and other artists. Needless to say, even certain scientists, including our very own MGTOW favorite Isaac Newton were deeply religious. Newton in fact worked more on theological works than on scientific ones. Funnily enough atheists will still say that religion is irrational. Either way, Newton was celibate (virgin for life), MGTOW (never married), apex mind and deeply religious. So, how’s that for a “MGTOW Monk”?

    1. Ballista_GTOW says:

      The Sandman stuff I think is simply representative of a number of men being introduced to the concept of MGTOW, yet have not properly taken the red-pill. If you look at Sandman and the other things going on (xpallodoc, Clarey, AVFM), you have blue-pill and red-pill men both calling themselves MGTOW. See this post for more details on my take from this kind of thing.
      —-
      The comment I responded to is more interesting, though:
      “Now, on to the point about religion within MGTOW. Sadly it seems that some MGTOWs have an anti-religious standpoint to the degree that they don’t consider self-identified MGTOWs who are religious as MGTOWs. This is just another form of co-opting/hijacking attempt similar to Paul Elam’s MGTOW+…”

      “Either way, there is no contradiction between religion and MGTOW because MGTOW is simply a rejection of gynocentrism and not a rejection of religion. If you (the anti-religion MGTOWs) want a rejection of religion go to the atheism community, don’t try to insert your anti-religion agenda into the core of MGTOW.”

      I’ve noticed ever since I’ve entered the general realm of the “manosphere” that there’s always been an undercurrent of either true atheism or anti-religion in all the so-called “major” figures (this would be 4 years now). It’s hard to tell which is which in certain commentators, but I’ve noticed the general trend in basically everybody. My first “real Christianity is not incompatible with the interests of men” post even got deleted due to this undercurrent.

      As one who has seen through all the lies in both realms, and not the only one who has had this lament, it seems that most of the ones that get it with respect to feminism and the self-determinism of men are either atheist or agnostic and generally hate religion. Then the ones that do have a religious focus are almost always blue-pill or are passing blue-pills off as red – this almost always includes the typical “Christian” manosphere types like Dalrock.

      The important thing to remember is what you are truly dealing with, or at least what you are professing to deal with. However unfortunate, Driscoll and the numerous other examples out there are not reflective of the true Christian faith, but are reflective of bridal mysticism and the goddess cult co-opting the Christian message and getting baked into both Christianity and the general society via tradition. This is what most MGTOW content producers are referring to as traditionalism. Even though, a few don’t understand it for what it is given the erroneous confusions between the results of biological determinism and these factors (and there are at least 3 in mind I could do responses to).

      While I can understand the knee-jerk that might be coming from those that haven’t fully investigated the issues surrounding religion, probably due to their atheism, note that there are those of us who see every bit of this crap for what it is and reject it. I don’t know how much of this undercurrent of MGTOW is atheism and how much of it is simple reaction to the traditional feminism, but given the state of what “Churchianity” (I hope barbarossaa using that term in his Driscoll post is a reflection that he at least sees the difference.) has been made into by these garbage peddlers, it shouldn’t be no surprise that there’s a repellant quality. All I can really hope is that those who are repelled by the gynocentrism take the effort to see what religion really is outside of the added crap.

      1. anonymous3.1416 says:

        There are many streams flowing into MGTOW right now, but a clue as to where the anti-religious undercurrent is coming from, might be found in Girl Writes What’s classic

        –Atheism, you asked for it….; karen straughan; Sep 3, 2012
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUPxRYWpglQ

        GWW does not address your point directly, but when these groups encountered the phrase MGTOW they saw in MGTOW the same thing that had attracted them to atheism. They then poured in from the atheist community and set up shop.

  2. Lovekraft says:

    article from Return of Kings that may add to this discussion, concerning a man’s suicide due to being waaaay over his head with a ‘beautiful’ woman:

    http://www.returnofkings.com/39604/not-every-man-can-handle-a-beautiful-woman

    The branches of the manosphere (for lack of a better term) are multiple and varied. So what if some branches bloom and others choke out, if in the end it results in more self-awareness and, ideally, freedom.

    MGTOWs are like most men: trying to find meaning. But they are closer to it because they are at least identifying and disassociating from the system. Because the system should be held up to scrutiny, those who call themselves MGTOW or MRAs or whatever while displaying their wealth/success are fooling themselves.

    This is my opinion, but what they are doing is sending a signal of ‘barrier’ to other men. And barriers are what the system uses and promotes to divide and conquer.

    That said, the ghosting MGTOW should learn to accept and be welcoming to the ‘preeners’ should they desire to return to the simpler, focussed way.

    1. Anonymous says:

      Religion is as much a divider as,anything else. While I don’t believe the anti religion pill needs to be swallowed to be a MGTOW, I do believe that a person that buys onto religion is utterly incapable of seeing entirely through the illusion because eventually aspects surface that are in opposition to religion. If you are sold on a religion, you can’t just keep cherry picking and adapting your beliefs to what you feel and still expect to be taken seriously. Obviously everything came from some kind of source. There isn’t enough evidence to point to what the source is. Most religions blabber on about the same entity, and people put words and ideals into this deity’s mouth. Why the fuck would you base your beliefs ok wild assumption? That’s why society has turned out like it has, because fools just blindly went along for the ride questioning nothing and basically just saying, “yeah that sounds good, fair or right”. Feminism anyone? Economic chaos anyone? Social undermining anyone? Established religion is in direct opposition to enlightenment that will benefit the species as a whole. Choose your gods carefully, because your faith and belief will give them power and they may very well turn that power against you and yours as we have well witnessed. Wake the fuck up. Red pill means you aren’t buying into the illusion, why limit is with women? Don’t swallow any illusion in any aspect of your life.

      P.S. I don’t have time nor the inclination to battle through your cognitive dissonance. Every man must sort that on his own. Take this or leave it. You took the religion in easy enough, shouldn’t be too hard to consider something different when all signs point to indoctrination of the ignorant youth.

    2. Folwart says:

      Religion is as much a divider as,anything else. While I don’t believe the anti religion pill needs to be swallowed to be a MGTOW, I do believe that a person that buys onto religion is utterly incapable of seeing entirely through the illusion because eventually aspects surface that are in opposition to religion. If you are sold on a religion, you can’t just keep cherry picking and adapting your beliefs to what you feel and still expect to be taken seriously. Obviously everything came from some kind of source. There isn’t enough evidence to point to what the source is. Most religions blabber on about the same entity, and people put words and ideals into this deity’s mouth. Why the fuck would you base your beliefs ok wild assumption? That’s why society has turned out like it has, because fools just blindly went along for the ride questioning nothing and basically just saying, “yeah that sounds good, fair or right”. Feminism anyone? Economic chaos anyone? Social undermining anyone? Established religion is in direct opposition to enlightenment that will benefit the species as a whole. Choose your gods carefully, because your faith and belief will give them power and they may very well turn that power against you and yours as we have well witnessed. Wake the fuck up. Red pill means you aren’t buying into the illusion, why limit is with women? Don’t swallow any illusion in any aspect of your life.

      P.S. I don’t have time nor the inclination to battle through your cognitive dissonance. Every man must sort that on his own. Take this or leave it. You took the religion in easy enough, shouldn’t be too hard to consider something different when all signs point to indoctrination of the ignorant youth.

  3. FEDORAMGTOW says:

    Sandman might as well join the writing team at AVfM, because he wants to coopt MGTOW in much the same way. “We reject gynocentrism, but not if you’re celibate, and you’really not allowed to go MGTOW until you pay your dues. You can’t learn from us, no. You have to get divorce raped yourself. How will you possibly know whether or not fire is hot if you don’t put your hand on the burning stove?”

  4. blah says:

    ‘ DELETE FROM

  5. UL says:

    I enjoyed your perspective. It was truly an insight more grounded in reality than sandman’s.

  6. Bayz says:

    Nah, the guy is as red pill as David Frutelle, I have yet to come to any content he produced that is insightful. While I may disagree with some stuff Bar bar, Stardusk or Neo produce, I always enjoy their content, with Sandman is just retardery coming from somebody who doesn’t seem to have a big degree of social experience or insight in social dynamics.

    Nacho once said something along the lines that you couldn’t be red pill if you are worried about your image and inclusivity, you are not going your own way while being fearful on how others will see you, and that is what Sandman is doing. Stardusk contends that Sandman keeps men in the ‘rage phase’, I will say that his base actually ends up returning to the plantation after a while, since he does seem to pander to the “oh if I sign a prenup I’ll be OK” and “(insert ‘exotic’ race) women are better than my cultural group’s women” crowd. Let him do his whoring and making ‘MGTOW’ label trendy, labels mean nothing and would not retract from what is a lifestyle for the ones who follow it.

    Let Men Going Peer Pressure’s Way go peer pressure’s way.

  7. aguilayserpiente says:

    Sandman’s “being poor sucks…and being poor by my own making,” along with his other comments reflect no historical areness of the material relations of production and capitalist exploitation; Sandman offers the Horatio Alger mythology of capitalism, which seeks to justify extracting capital from workers to concentrate it in the hands of corporations. MGTOW is supposed to be a critical analysis of relationships of power and economic structures, which are inherently exploitive and create disposable men. The disposable men, which society creates for the insulation of women, are crafted by capitalists: poor men go to war, poor men work in the coal mines, poor men and women work in the agricultural fields (affluent feminists have no problem being made wealthy by the labor of poor men & poor women), poor men work in the toxic mill, and poor men work in dangerous construction and toxic waste disposal. Poor men do that for the benefits of the Trump’s and the women. Sandman’s worship of seductive images of men in 3 piece suits and 1930s cars blinds him to the economic reality that the labor of millions of poor men is being extracted by that Gatsby/Donald Trump.

    The Gatsby buys yachts and big cars to advertise that he is available to be a White Knight beta. Oddly, Sandman did a video criticizing the beta/sub male Mr. Big from Sex in the City, who is friendzoned and later selected as a supporter husband when the woman is no longer wanted by virile males @05:11 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKv9h_JwPPE Sandman’s stuff frequently breaks down.

  8. aguilayserpiente says:

    “Men who don’t date women are cowards” means that men owe women attention and money. This notion of entitlement to men’s sacrifice and the right to reject them is the social illness MGTOW rejects, but Sandman is now a proponent of that entitlement. Sandman confesses to using his videos to “work through” his issues with women, i.e. he used the entire manosphere as an emotional tampon just like airhead women whose planets don’t align or are “going through changes.” In a couple of sentences Sandman debunks the content of his own prior videos, because they were the result of being hurt like a little girl. Sandman must have gotten a “girlfriend.”

    Now, that Sandman is a White Knight to some female, he is all is rosy kumbaya, at least until he marries, is suckered into kids, dumped for her personal trainer, and he is paying her child support. What will broke Gatsby Sandman do then, come to us for help? Sandman is a mangina.

  9. Messenger says:

    I think its obvious that thanks to Sandman’s success, he has attacted himself a 9 or maybe even a 10. Now hes developing “feelings” for her and the purple pill is wearing off. He is a blue piller now. We wont get him back until long after she has already destroyed his livlihood and life, if ever. Its the same old song.

  10. Broken Deity says:

    I dont think religion has anything to do with this. It has everything to do with his worship of the wealthy and a classist attitude towards anyone that doesn’t measure up financially.

    It’s pretty obvious considering his video about Ayn Rand. She was also a classist narcissistic cunt who saw most people as disposable utilities.

  11. Traversable says:

    Seems a little more obvious now 3 years later that moderate view of mgtow has turned it into a shitshow of tfl and incel don’t you think so .
    The sandman or mgtow light , has always been a lessor version of mgtow .

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